Saturday, December 31, 2011

80 ProofsThe High Calling is Ended-Number 22

(22) The manifestation of the Youthful Worthies as a separate and distinct class as early as 1917 (the antitypical men of Ephraim; Judges 7: 24—8: 3; E 5, pp. 224-235), proves that prior to that time the reaping and gleaning of the Little Flock had ended; for the Youthful Worthies could not be known as a separate and distinct class while the Little Flock were still being reaped.

Sunday, December 25, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: The Youthful Worthies Article, PT May-June, 1972, Paragraph 9


With the Winter 2011 PT out for all to read, we not only have a new view on the CECs, but we also have more of Bro. Jolly's Youthful Worthies article reprinted (as part 2). Again, we have to make edits where needed to help the Executive Trustee. Here in paragraph 9, the order of development of the elect classes has no mention of the new and unique idea that the Youthful Worthies became a separate and distinct class during the Harvest.

Friday, December 16, 2011

Finish Their Course - Must Have The Spirit That Would Be Faithful Unto Death

We are very pleased to see the current Executive Trustee actually provide a reference. We do have a recorded copy of Bro. Jolly's explanation to the question that was placed at the Chicago convention in 1971. Unfortunately, We see a few challenges here:
  1. The current Executive Trustee seems to thrive on being controversial with the Brethren
  2. *The current Executive Trustee also has difficulties being objective. There are later, printed thoughts from Bro. Jolly that he is ignoring. Also, those of us who personally knew Bro. Elmer know that he believed it possible that some C.E.C.s would not have to die.
  3. The Current Executive Trustee struggles with semantics. Two come to mind: "Finish their course" and "must have the spirit that would be faithful unto death"

*He brings us partial truth that precedes Bro. Elmer's discourse, and doesn't disclose Bro. Jolly's later thought on the subject::

However, we are not to think that all who consecrate before the Highway of Holiness is opened up must of necessity die. Since some of the Consecrated Epiphany Campers may consecrate, e.g., shortly prior to or during the time of Israel’s national conversion (which we understand is pre-Millennial—E. Vol. 16, p. 130), and thus be living very near to the time of the inauguration of the New Covenant and its restitution blessings, it would be reasonable to suppose that some of them may not die, but live through the remaining portion of the Time of Trouble, and then serve as special assistants to the resurrected Ancient and Youthful Worthies in starting the restitution work...

...Whether those whose lives are spared during the Time of Trouble will include any of the Consecrated Epiphany Campers we are not sure; but of one thing we do feel certain, i.e., to be acceptable to God in their consecrations they must have the spirit that would be faithful unto death, even if they were not to die in every individual case. ’55- 42; ’78-62...

Saturday, December 3, 2011

E. Vol 3 Pgs 105 - 115 Lessons From Elijah and History

105 ..."the present management," in their relation to the Board and the general work, were not keeping the peace and unity that the rest of God's people as a rule were. We fear that they were seeking other things, which interested them more than Zion's welfare.

111-112...the Society among its loyal supporters. Certainly the Society's advocates were surprised and saddened to find the affairs of the Society in the condition in which they were; and certainly did discuss and recognize the organization of the Lord's people, the chariot of Israel, crying out, "the Society! the Society! the Society! the Channel! the Channel! the Channel! We must stand by the Society! We must stand by the Channel! We must defend the Society in its trial! We must be loyal to the Society, because it is the Channel! Whatever the wrong that has been done by the Society leaders, we must nevertheless remember that the Society is the Channel!"...

114-115 ...The fourth activity of Elisha was his rending his own clothes into two pieces. Clothing in the symbols of the Bible represents our graces of heart and mind. "Put on, therefore, as the Elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, etc." "Be clothed with humility." (Col. 2: 12, 13; 1 Pet. 5: 5.) Other passages along the same line will come to every Bible student's mind. To rend one's clothes would seem to represent doing violence to one's graces, and to rend them in twain would seem to represent such gross violence done to one's graces as to tear them in twain, and thus to expose one's double-mindedness, which is a quality of the Great Company (Jas. 1: 8). This action of Elisha's seems to find a fitting antitype in the violence to Truth, Justice and Love committed by J.F. Rutherford and his supporters against the so-called "Opposition." As an illustration of this  gross, unscriptural conduct we refer to J.F. Rutherford's "Harvest Siftings," cruel in itself and grossly deceptive as to facts. All over the world those who stood faithful for "that Servant's" arrangements were treated with gross injustice, lovelessness and misrepresentation by those who rallied to the battle cry, "the channel! the channel!"

All you need to do is change a few names, and the dates...

Wednesday, November 23, 2011

Why have the Youthful Worthies not been favored with the High Calling? E5 Page 259 (55) Q5

…After the appearance of The Present Truth, especially Nos. 1, 6 and 12, this same resentment increasingly manifested itself the world over. In varying forms these dear brethren showed their great disappointment at coming too late for the High Calling. Their sorrow and disappointment have been great, and we are sure that the entire Priesthood has deeply sympathized with them; for theirs has been a terrible disappointment, which, however, affecting them with more or less resentment, has occasioned them as a class to contend strongly with the Lord ("they did chide with him sharply") at their not being called in time to have had the privilege accorded to the Very Elect exclusively, i.e., unto a completion and in the proper spirit to engage in antitypical Gideon's first battle, to smite Jordan the first time, to confess the sins over Azazel's Goat, to execute the Gideon judgment written. In not a few cases we have received letters from some of these dear brethren blaming us, as if it were our fault that they came in too late for the High Calling, and as if our announcing the Truth on the subject caused them the loss of this special privilege. Seemingly such dear ones forget that our setting forth the Truth on this subject did not cut off further access to the High Calling; for the opportunity of the Spirit-begettal had ceased nearly four years before we learned of it; and the sealing of the Elect had ended about two years before we learned of it. In complaining against us on this account they are, as the type shows, really murmuring against the Lord, the antitypical Gideon, as do all of those Youthful Worthies who, without blaming us, resent their not having been favored with the High Calling… 

E. Vol 5 - Par. 55 Page 231- ...All must admit that some time in the Lord's Plan the time for gaining the last member of Christ would have to set in, and this having set in would necessitate the withholding of the invitation of the High Calling from all others. Scripture, Reasons and Facts prove that that time has already set in with the indicated results... 

Despite "Scripture, Reason, and Facts," the current Executive Trustee's "present view" of the Youthful Worthies having its beginning in 1878 is completely contradictory to Bro. Johnson's teachings on the matter. If there truly had been a Youthful Worthy call beginning in 1878, instead of 1914, Bro. Johnson could have eliminated the above explanation of their disappointment that the High Calling ended when they were discovered, and identified as "The Youthful Worthy Class" in 1919 - See PT. 1919 Page 34 

Monday, November 14, 2011

153 Fishes

In John 21: 1-11 a still more restricted viewpoint is given; for here it was not "a great multitude of fishes"; nevertheless, they "were no longer able to draw it [the net], from [because of] the multitude of [the, so the Greek] fishes" (see Diaglott). Only "the very elect," the Little Flock (very small in number compared to the Great Company or to the world of mankind, but yet by itself rather large in number—144,000), is here indicated. The Little Flock was full and complete in its final membership by the Fall of 1914, the end of the 40-year Harvest reaping period (for proofs see E 5, pp. 143-177; P '37, pp. 182-192). Then the plowman—the Time of Trouble—began to overtake the reaper (Amos 9: 13), and it did so fully by the Spring of 1916, when the sealing of the 144,000 in their foreheads was finished (Rev. 7: 1-4; E 5, pp. 147-150), though many of them remained on earth for years thereafter. But by Oct. 1914 God had begotten by His Spirit the full number of those who He knew would finally make up "the fishes," the "many brethren" predestinated "to be conformed to the image of his Son [as members of His Body] " (Rom. 8: 29; Eph. 1: 5). Accordingly, in the Fall of 1914 the door of entrance into the High Calling closed—the net was full, they "were no longer able to draw it"—no more of "the fishes," those who would be of the Little Flock, were to be caught, and therefore no more Spirit-begettals were to be made for Gospel-Age purposes.

PT. 1964 Page, 42-C2

Saturday, November 5, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: The Youthful Worthies Article, PT May-June, 1972, Page 34, C1-C2


We continue our edits of Bro. Jolly's Youthful Worthies article from 1972 in order to help the Executive Trustee with his new view (see previous post). We have one last tweak on paragraph 2. How is it possible that Pastor Russell was not aware of a second call to a class during the Harvest if, in fact, one did exist? We don't know.

Sunday, October 30, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: The Youthful Worthies Article, PT May-June, 1972, Page 34, C1


The current Executive Trustee seems to be republishing (in sections) Bro. Jolly's Youthful Worthies article from 1972. So far, he has not altered it to meet his needs. This is surprising because the entire article does not show his changed view of their existence. So, with the use of a fresh set of permanent markers, we would like to help.

We begin with paragraph 2, where the term "individuals of a class" may be misunderstood to mean a class when the historical use of it only indicates a group of undefined individuals with like characteristics. Bro. Johnson used a similar sentence in E4 on page 318. Here, we change it to the date and event that the Executive Trustee needs. We also have to change the next sentence in order to allow for surplus consecrators from 1878 instead of 1881.

Sunday, October 23, 2011

Letters of General Interest: PT July-August, 1972


DEAR Bro. Jolly: I would appreciate it very much if you would answer this question for me. I have studied and loved God's Word for over 30 years. I have the Studies in the Scriptures. I understand about the High Calling, yet my desire is to live on this earth. I cannot bring myself to desire anything else. It is not the fear of death. I am almost 63 and expect to die, but I have full faith in the resurrection. I was in the "J. W.'s" organization for 16 years, mostly because they do preach the earthly kingdom; but I could not go along with many of their teachings and practices. I left them 13 years ago and occasionally have some fellowship with others who left. I have assembled with the Dawn people for three winters, but they hounded me constantly to "run for the High Calling." Now if you can tell me what is wrong I will very much appreciate i it. Please send me ten each of these tracts: . . . . Thank you, Mrs. R M., Pennsylvania.

THE EDITOR'S REPLY TO THE ABOVE
Dear Sister: Greetings in Jesus' name (John 14: 6; Phil. 2: 5-11)! Thank you for your good letter of Feb. 22. I appreciate what you mention about your Christian life and hopes. In view of this being a time of dispensational changes in the Plan of God, I do not think you should feel distressed if you as one of God's people cannot bring yourself to desire other than the earthly salvation. Pastor Russell showed that from 1881 onward there would be some consecrated ones for whom no crowns, no places in the Little Flock, could tentatively be assigned, but that nevertheless, if faithful in their consecration, their reward would be similar to that of the Ancient Worthies--see F 156, 1157; Z (Reprints) 4836, pars. 3-6, 10,11; 5761, col. 2, pars. 1,2; Question Book; pp. 151, 152. We call these Youthful Worthies (Joel 2: 28; E 4, Chap. 5). For all who have consecrated since the Fall of 1914 there are no crowns available. Thus since 1914 many additional Youthful Worthies have come forth. In PT No. 515 (a copy free on request), 80 proofs are given to show that the door of entrance into the High Calling closed with the beginning of the World War, Phase 1.

You tell of having studied and loved God's Word for over 30 years. I rejoice with you in this (Psa. 119: 97; Provo 8: 10, 11; Acts 17: 11; 2 Tim. 2: 15). Though you do not specifically mention it, I suppose you have consecrated, or dedicated, yourself to God (Rom. 12: 1; Provo 23: 26), giving up your own will selfward and worldward, and accepting His will as your own, as Jesus did (Heb. 10: 7; Matt. 26: 39). If not, I would encourage you to do so. Obviously, however, you did not consecrate before the close of the door in 1914. It is regrettable that some are urging you to run for the High Calling at this late date. In doing so, they are not doing a Divinely approved work.

Those who are prospective Youthful Worthies, Spirit-enlightened but not Spirit-begotten consecrated ones, should not be expected to have emphatic heavenly aspirations (E 15, p. 653) at the present time. If their desires are along the lines of living in the new earth-2 Pet. 3: 13 (surely they should not desire the conditions of "this present evil world"!-Gal. 1: 4), no one should find any fault with them on this account.

However, a word of caution should be given in this connection-if anyone is looking forward to living in the new earth with the thought in mind of then using all of his time on his own home, his own education, the arts and sciences; or just traveling about, viewing the beauties nature and living a life of ease, he has a decidedly wrong and unbiblical perspective. Those who in the Kingdom on earth as they have opportunity will not gladly give the Truth to those who are hungering and thirsting for it as the Bread and Water of life, will not willingly bring those who are strangers to the New Covenant into their hospitality in it, will not seek to clothe those destitute of Christ's righteousness with it as a garment, will not help to cure the sin-sick of their sin-maladies and will not, by their earnest prayers for them to come forth, visit those in the prison-cells of the tomb--all who will not do these things, but who will live selfishly, will end up, not with the "sheep" class who will be given everlasting life on earth, but with the "goat" class--see Matt. 25: 31-46. They will be destroyed in the Second Death.

The Scriptures indicate that the Ancient Worthies, who some cases (e.g., Samson-Heb. 11: 32) evidently did not in this life have emphatic heavenly aspirations, will be Spirit-begotten in the Little Season. They will then all have emphatic heavenly aspirations. Being of the Millennial Church of the Firstborn, antitypical Levites, they will have no eventual inheritance in the earth among the restitutionists, but will after being tested sufficiently Spirit.Jbegotten ones be born of the Spirit to a spirit nature and inheritanceHeb. 12: 23; Num. 18: 20, 23, 24· Z (Reprints) 5182, 5183; E 4, pp. 331-336. The Youthful Worthies will share with them in these things.

It may be very difficult under present circumstances for you to understand how you will ever have emphatic heavenly aspirations; but rest assured that if you are faithful in following in the Master's steps in serving Jehovah (1 Pet. 2: 21) as one of the Youthful Worthies, you will when begotten of the Spirit in the Little Season definitely have such aspirations. In the meantime, while looking forward to the blessings, privileges and service God's Kingdom with its new order in human society, seek to be just as faithful as you can in following our Lord Jesus, in self- and world-denial, in study of and meditation on God's Word, in watchfulness and prayer, in growing in the graces, in witnessing to the Truth, and suffering for loyalty to it. Jehovah will bless you richly you do so. If you do not have the Epiphany volumes, including those mentioned above, I suggest that you get them and study them at your early convenience. Be assured of my warm Christian love and fervent prayers.

The above response from Bro. Jolly shows that he refers to consecrators after 1881, not 1878. This response to a letter appears one month after he published the Youthful Worthy article, the one that the current Executive Trustee is also in the process of reprinting because he thinks it shows his view. There are references in the article itself that contradict this current view, which we will cover, but this response is also very clear.

Sunday, October 16, 2011

Christians generally make no effort to harmonize... P Vol. 2 Pages 143-144

...As seekers after truth, it will not do for us to say, in view of these passages, that their majority seem to favor whatever view we incline to prefer, and then to ignore the others. Until we have a view of the matter in which every Bible statement finds a logical representation, we should not feel sure that we have the truth on the subject. One statement of God is as true and firm a foundation for faith, as a hundred. And it would be wiser to seek for a harmonious understanding than to arrive at a conclusion or adopt a theory based on a one-sided interpretation, and thus to deceive ourselves and others.

Christians generally make no effort to harmonize these statements, and therefore their ideas are one-sided and incorrect... 

If the brethren at large would apply Bro. Russell's principle stated above, they would readily see the error with the current Executive Trustee's one-sided interpretation of the "Present View" "Shutting of the Door several times," etc...

Sunday, October 9, 2011

Truth To Be Given When Due - Part 2

PT 1957 Page 23, 24

(23) How marvelous it is to our eyes to see that Keturah's six sons so fittingly and fully picture six classes, embracing all who will be developed under the New Covenant, from the highest class to the lowest (1) the 70 most prominent Worthies; (2) the Worthies as a class, subdivided into the Ancient and the Youthful Worthies, with the three divisions of the Youthful Worthies also being shown; (3) the Consecrated Epiphany Campers; (4) the quasi-elect fleshly Israelites divided into five groups; (5) the loyal tentatively-justified Gentiles, and finally (6) the non-elect.

Monday, October 3, 2011

Truth To Be Given When Due - Part 1

In this general outline Bro. Russell did not specify separately the Youthful Worthies, though he already indicated that the non-Spirit-begotten consecrated quite likely would come forth in the resurrection as “members of the same class as the ancient worthies” (F 156, 157; R 4836, par. 5). Nor did he mention the Consecrated Epiphany Campers and the various groups of Jews and Gentiles, as typed by Keturah’s descendants (Gen. 25: 1-4), for the further unfolding of Truth in respect to these classes was not yet due to be given. Bro. Johnson followed the same general outline, but specified some of the pertinent classes and groups that Bro. Russell did not mention (see, e.g., E. 11, pp. 405, 406, 412; E. 6, p. 717; E. 15, p. 682); and we have done the same (see, e.g., P. ’57, pp. 23, 24).

Thursday, September 29, 2011

Monday, September 26, 2011

Written in 1914 - WT R5532 Page 269

Let No One Take Your Crown...

ENCOURAGEMENT FOR THE CHURCH

Our text addresses not the world, not the nominal Church--but the true Church. The true Church, having turned away from sin, having accepted Christ, having given their hearts to God, through Christ having been accepted of the Father and begotten of the Holy Spirit, are children of God; and, as the Apostle says, "If children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ" our Lord. (Romans 8:17.) A crown of glory is set apart for each son thus received of the Father, and the name of each is recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life.

So far as God is concerned, the whole matter is settled. But so far as the Church is concerned, it still remains for them to fulfil their Covenant. Having presented their bodies a living sacrifice to God, acceptable through Christ, they are to continue in that attitude--day by day gladly presenting their bodies, willing to endure, to suffer, to be anything and everything that God would be pleased to have them be. All who do this continue to grow in character-likeness to the Lord Jesus; and all such will thereby make their calling and election sure.

But should any of these neglect this Covenant of Sacrifice, and through fear of death be subject to bondage either to sin or to sectarian errors, or in any other manner fail to be responsive and loyal to their Covenant, they will thereby fail to maintain their election and make it sure. After a time of testing they will be relegated to a secondary place; they will be no longer counted part of the Royal Priesthood, even though they might still maintain their standing as Levites, servants of the Priests.

This is the thought of the text; namely, Be of good courage. It will not be long until I will come to receive you to Myself. Let the thought of the Kingdom and of the Divine blessing connected with it cheer, strengthen, comfort you, and make you strong to do God's will faithfully, nobly, courageously, loyally. "Hold fast that which thou hast." Do not let slip from you the blessed relationship which was entered into, which was established for you by Me, your Master, when I made you acceptable on the basis of your Covenant to be dead with Me, to suffer with Me, to give up all earthly ambitions and to strive daily for the great prize which I set before you--a joint-heirship in My Kingdom.

The crown is yours now, by virtue of the arrangement which I have made with you as your Advocate, and by virtue of the Covenant of Sacrifice which you have made with Me. Hold fast your crown! Do not allow it to pass to another. If any one of you is unfaithful, God will not permit you to have a share in that Kingdom, but will enroll another name than yours, will apportion another name instead of yours as a new Covenanter.

Monday, September 12, 2011

"THE PRIZE SET BEFORE US." -- JULY 1, 1894 (WT R1668)

But in showing the Divine Plan of the Ages--from Eden lost to Paradise restored--it has been both necessary and proper to point out that the prize set before us in the gospel is a different one from that before Israel after the Flesh, during the Jewish age, and different also from that which will be set before mankind in general during the Millennium. And now something more upon the subject seems necessary from the fact that some have misunderstood us, and gotten the idea that there are two or three prizes, any one of which may now be run for successfully, and equally to the Lord's pleasing. These are defined to be, (1) The high calling, to divine nature and glory; (2) Spiritual nature of a lower order than the divine nature; (3) Human perfection by restitution.

The advocates of the errors referred to proceed to explain three sets of conditions or terms to be complied with, and that which of the three prizes is won at the end of life's journey, will depend upon which of the three sets of conditions has been followed. (1) To gain the chief prize requires a full consecration of heart, followed as absolutely as possible, in thought, word and deed. To this we assent. (2) To gain the second prize, say they, one should live a good, honorable, Christian life, but need not specially sacrifice the good-will and esteem of worldly people. In other words, an honorable and generally esteemed Christian is supposed to be running for this second prize --successfully, whether he knows it or not. From this view we dissent, and will give our reasons later. (3) They hold that for the third prize little or no running is necessary, that if one merely feels his own unworthiness and trusts in the merit of Christ as the ransom for all, accepts the restitution promises, and avoids open wickedness, he will get this prize. Some, indeed, take credit to themselves in the matter, erroneously considering that they are cultivating the grace of humility,--saying, I don't aspire to be a king on the throne of God's Kingdom. Oh, no! a humbler place will do me. From all this also we dissent.

The facts are these:--
(1) There is but the one prize held out by the Scriptures as an offer during this age, as there was a different one held out previously, and as there will be a still different one held out during the Millennial age. The Scriptures are very definite respecting this one prize of the Gospel age. See Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15.

Tuesday, September 6, 2011

Prawda Zmiamy - br. Herziga Quasi-Wybrani



























The 2004 article then introduces two new sentences not found in the 1978 version. The first sentence completes the condition of the Great Company, while the second brings in the “present view” of the Youthful Worthies: “The Great Company has finished its course and has now received the spirit nature (Rev. 7: 1-14). The Youthful Worthies, as the last elect class, has been in the process of development since their inception in 1878 (see E4, The Epiphany's Elect, pp. 372-376; PT No. 519).”

Thursday, September 1, 2011

More Darkness As Truth Given By God's Servants Are Ignored

More Darkness As Truth Given By God's Spirit Begotten Servants Are Ignored By The Current Executive Trustee Of The BSM - "The Consecrated Epiphany Campers will have to die before restitution blessings can begin."

The administrators of this blog recently received a postcard responding to another controversy the current Executive Trustee is bringing forth as "truth" at convention platforms. He has no logical explanation, nor is he willing to give solid references to support his thoughts. We believe the recent postcard is objective and shows forth the servant's views on the matter. (See: www.pegatekeepers.org) We would like to post some of these references for all who wish to prove this "truth" for themselves.

Questions PT. 1955 pg. 42 - PT. 1978 pg. 62
...However, we are not to think that all who consecrate before the Highway of Holiness is opened up must of necessity die. Since some of the Consecrated Epiphany Campers may consecrate, e.g., shortly prior to or during the time of Israel's national conversion (which we understand is pre-Millennial—E. Vol. 16, p. 130), and thus be living very near to the time of the inauguration of the New Covenant and its restitution blessings, it would be reasonable to suppose that some of them may not die, but live through the remaining portion of the Time of Trouble, and then serve as special assistants to the resurrected Ancient and Youthful Worthies in starting the restitution work. We know from the Scriptures that some of the non-elect will live through the Time of Trouble. Isa. 24: 6, referring to that time, states, “therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.” From Zeph. 3: 8, 9 we learn that after all the earth shall have been devoured by the fire of God’s jealousy in the Time of Trouble, He will turn to the people a pure language...



Saturday, August 27, 2011

They Are Slowly Going Into Darkness As they Depart Further From The Truth

...And up to the time the general call to the High Calling ceased in 1881, all who responded by consecration were begotten of the Spirit and then were pictured as in the Holy. But because of the close of the general call to the High Calling in 1881 and of the door of entrance into the High Calling in 1914, some of the 1881-1914 consecrators and all post- 1914 consecrators from among the tentatively justified in the Court had no crowns available to them. Accordingly, their entrance into the consecrated condition could not be pictured by entrance into the Holy, for they were not Spirit begotten; instead, they as non-Spirit-begotten consecrated ones, prospective Youthful Worthies, remained in the Court...

Note: You may have heard some with false authority state the Youthful Worthies call began in 1878 as individuals, and a class in 1881. That thought is error. It contradicts the Truth that has already been written by the Spirit Begotten as stated above.

Monday, August 22, 2011

For Those Brethren Who Have Been Misled at The Recent Ohio Convention

What five things, especially, constituted a call to the Youthful Worthies:

How did antitypical Gideon call them? We answer: (1) by continuing the invitation to consecrate after the Fall of 1914; (2) by emphasizing after the Fall of 1914, e.g., in Z '15,269, pars. 6, 7, the fact that there would be a class who, called too late for the High Calling, would be privileged to share in reward and honor with the Ancient Worthies, i.e., that there would be a Youthful Worthies class; (3) by arousing them to battle against error; (4) by the teaching during 1916 that the Lord's people would smite Jordan twice; and (5) by encouraging repeatedly during 1916 the Lord's people along the lines of the privilege of smiting Jordan. These five things as well as others were a call to the Youthful Worthies to take part in the warfare against antitypical Midian, to take the waters of antitypical Jordan...

Had the Youthful Worthies been a separate and distinct class in 1881, the above type and antitype would not work or make sense.

Originally posted 9/02/08

Friday, August 12, 2011

Epiphany - Court And Camp

Question (1963)—After 1914, did not the truth on the Epiphany Court unfold beyond Bro. Russell’s expectations? And is there not a similarity since 1954, in regard to the truth on the Epiphany Camp?

Lord made clear (through Bro. Johnson) that there was not only one class—the Great Company - but three classes in the post-1914 Court, during the Epiphany in its narrow, 40-year sense, as follows: (1) the unconsecrated tentatively justified (including many of them who came in from 1914 onward), who would not be remanded from the Court until 1954 (instead of 1914, as Bro. Russell had expected), (2) the Great Company, remanded from the Holy, and (3) the non-Spirit-begotten consecrated—the Youthful Worthies—who never had been in the Holy. Thus after 1914 the truth on the Epiphany Court did unfold beyond Bro. Russell’s expectations (Prov. 4: 18; A 20-28; E. 6, pp. 31-43).

Monday, August 1, 2011

E Vol. 3 Pages 51, 52

...Elijah's sitting on its top types the fact that at that time, from early Fall of 1914 onward, the entire eventual Elijah class was in the embryo Kingdom, i.e., the last one of those who would prove faithful had been begotten of the Spirit, and henceforth no one else would be invited to the high calling; for all embryo new creatures who will overcome are by us to be regarded as already in the highest or heavenly phase of the Kingdom—sitting on the top of a mountain (Rev. 14: 1); and certainly by October, 1914, almost all of us understood that the last one of the Faithful had been begotten of the Spirit, and a little later came to see that the harvesting that yet remained was of a gleaning character. Moreover, the fact that Elijah was then on the mountain's top, implies that he had previously reached and ascended the mountain. His reaching the mountain also types the fact that the Church somewhat before early Fall, 1914, reached the time when the Kingdom beyond the vail would be working to overthrow Satan's Empire, which working began September 21, 1914, after the outbreak of the World War. This is in harmony with our Pastor's secondary thought on the antitype of Elijah's coming at the end of the 40 days—1914—to Horeb, the Mount of God (1 Kings 19: 8)...

Wednesday, July 20, 2011

E6, Merariism, P125

The channel doctrine is wrong because it makes its adherents over-reverence a good institution, which has been put to bad uses, and therefore fail to scrutinize its teachings and policies with sufficient care to secure themselves from great blunders, wrong policies and consequent spiritual dangers (Ps. 146: 3). In justification they allege that it is the Lord's concern to keep the channel pure; and thus they fail to watch properly; and leave themselves open to accept rather unquestioningly and credulously what "the channel" offers them. Such an attitude is tempting God (Matt. 4: 7), who guarantees no such thing, but disapproves of it by exhorting us to be sober and vigilant, and to prove all things (1 Pet. 5: 8, 9; 1 Thes. 5: 21; 1 John 4: 1). This course produces in its adherents a spirit similar to that of the members of the Catholic Church, a worshipping of messengers, a failure to test their teachings and a swallowing of error and a blind obedience. The channel doctrine is wrong, because it makes God's people subject to an institution to which they should not be subject (1 Cor. 7: 23). In practice this doctrine has made the bulk of the Society adherents as subject to it as the adherents of the papacy are to it. The same line of argument is used in each case; "to be out of harmony with the channel is to be out of harmony with the Lord." This thought has spread the spirit of fear among its adherents. They fear to get out of harmony with the Society lest they lose their crowns and opportunities of service and fellowship. Thus they fear properly to weigh its teachings and policies, thereby encouraging priestcraft. These considerations make them subject to a business corporation with a spirit of servile fear unbecoming to Priests of God.

Sunday, July 10, 2011

A Letter of General Interest, PT July-August, 1957

My Dear Bro. Jolly: Grace and peace! First, I wish to say that I feel that I owe you an apology for the way in which in the past I handled with you the things which I then thought to be error on your part . . I would love to be on the Divine spirit plane with Jesus and the other 143,999 Divine beings, I making the full number--144,000; however, I now see that it cannot be. Bro. Johnson was the last Priest and star-member combined. Am I sorry? No! God knows best. If I am a Good Levite, I will be before the Throne with a Great Multitude.

The Scripture which says, "Let no man take thy crown," was applicable only until the end of the Parousia. Before it ended I had a chance to get into the Little Flock; I could then say, "We are all called in the one hope of our calling," but now that Scripture does not apply. I now see that whatever my desires are respecting the Little Flock, the Epiphany Messenger was the last Priest, making up the 144,000. The Lord's statement on Abel and Zacharias proves it. Even Bro. Russell, without knowing it, proved it in Z5256, pars. 11, 12.

And what shall my attitude be toward the Lord and toward the kingdom? Just as strong and faithful as if I were certain of Divine nature. Can we think that the angels in heaven are regretting the fact that they are not cherubim? Are they sad because they were not created equal to Michael? No! a thousand times no! I believe that those who refuse to see the truth on the subject of the Church's glorification are in some cases led partly by their imperfections, and will remain covered by Christ's robe of righteousness until and if they prove to Him that they no longer deserve that covering.

You have done a good work in exposing the errors of the sifters. Surely these controversies between Truth and error will help to manifest all who know and love the Truth. Thanks to you for The Present Truths and the other literature. Kindly send me The Millennium book. If you publish this, please give my name; it may help some of my associates, etc.

Your brother by the grace of the Lord, W.V.A. Franklin, Cal.

Friday, July 1, 2011

Those Who Were, and Those Who became... E7 Pgs. 313, 314

We rejoice that God opened their eyes to see the Parousia Truth and to consecrate; but even if this had taken place during the last 33 years of the Parousia time,: i.e., from Oct., 1881, up to Oct., 1914, it would not necessarily imply that they were offered the high calling; for, as our Pastor shows (F 156, 157), and as the Bible proves, after the general call ceased only certain ones of the consecrators were Spirit-begotten, and the rest became Youthful Worthies, to be associated with the Ancient Worthies as princes during the Millennium (Vol. IV, Chap. V). But since the reaping ended, i.e., since the Epiphany began, nobody is any more favored with the Spirit-begettal. It is the misfortune of such consecrators that, ignorantly indeed, they, against God's Word as now due, applied to themselves the Parousia promises that then applied to a limited number of the consecrators only, and that no longer, during the Epiphany, apply to anybody; but if their hearts are right, the Lord will show them that the Youthful Worthies' hope is theirs, and that He did not "slam the door close in their face" but closed it when due, which left many outside who wanted to come in, but could not (Luke 13: 24-27).

Thursday, June 23, 2011

PT July-August, 1980, P. 62: Who is the High Priest for “Those Consecrating Between the Ages” (R 5761)?

But the World’s High Priest deals also with the Youthful Worthy Levites and the consecrated antitypical Nethinim (the Consecrated Epiphany Campers) here in the end of the Age. He is the High Priest for all—including the antitypical Israelites. Though both Head and Body are now in the Divine nature, associated with the Heavenly Father, they are still not in the antitypical garments of glory and beauty (P. ’57, p. 12). They still do not have all their Millennial Mediatorial powers, prerogatives, privileges, possessions and services (E. 11, p. 578), which are included in these antitypical garments and which come to them only after Jesus’ blood-merit is applied on behalf of the world (Z Reprints 80, par. 5; 245, par. 12, 15; 3709; 4602, par. 2).

The World’s High Priest has worked toward the Youthful Worthies from 1881 onward and toward the rest of “Those Consecrating Between the Ages,” the
Consecrated Epiphany Campers, from the Fall of 1954 onward. In fact, this High Priest has worked toward the unconsecrated tentatively justified also (E. 4, p.
69). All such consecrators are of the pre-Millennial seed of Abraham (E. 11, p. 293), those who consecrate before the Millennial Mediatorial Reign begins.

Tuesday, June 14, 2011

P2 Page. 235 - Parallel Dispensations

...Similar periods are marked in the harvest of this age now closing, corresponding to those of that harvest. The fall of 1874, when the Jubilee cycles point out that our Lord was due to be present, corresponds to the time of his baptism and anointing by the holy Spirit when he became Messiah the Prince (Dan. 9: 25), and began his work of reaping the Jewish harvest. The Spring of 1878, three and a half years after, corresponds to the date at which Jesus assumed the office of King, rode on the ass, cleansed the temple of its money-changers, wept over and gave up to desolation that nominal church or kingdom. It marks the date when the nominal church systems were spewed out (Rev. 3: 16), and from which time (1878) they are not the mouth-pieces of God, nor in any degree recognized by him. The three and a half years following the Spring of 1878, which ended October, 1881, correspond to the three and a half years of continued favor to individual Jews in the last half of their seventieth week of favor. As in the type the date, three and a half years after Jesus' death, marked the end of all special favor to the Jew and the beginning of favor to the Gentiles, so we recognize 1881 as marking the close of the special favor to Gentiles, the close of the high calling, or invitation to the blessings peculiar to this age—to become joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the divine nature…

Saturday, June 4, 2011

A word on the Youthful Worthies as to the witness of the Spirit.

PT August 1949, pages 120-121: "Not being sons of God yet, they, of course, are not by the witness of the Spirit, the Truth, given proof that their standing is one of sons, new creatures. Hence they do not now get, by the witness of the Spirit, the same as the Little Flock and the Great Company get. They get the same witness of the Spirit as the Ancient Worthies got, i.e., that they are friends and servants and prospective sons of God. Hence, whatever in the seven witnesses of the Spirit given sons is applicable to friends and servants and prospective sons of God, is given to them. Hence as the Ancient Worthies got all of the Truth due in their days, so the Youthful Worthies get all the Truth due in our day. Hence it is their privilege as they are loyal to get all the Truth that is due the Little Flock and Great Company, dependent on whether they mingle with the Little Flock or with the Great Company. The facts of experience show this to be true. Some object that not being Spirit-begotten, they cannot see the deep things. To this we answer, the Scriptures teach for all times that the due Truth is for all the consecrated. Hence, in the Old Testament times the Ancient Worthies got all of the Truth due in their times. In the next Age, without Spirit-begettal, the Ancient and Youthful Worthies and the restitution class will come to understand everything in the Bible (Is. 11: 9; 29: 18, 24; 35: 5; 40: 5; Jer. 31: 34). Why? Because it is always the privilege of the consecrated to see the Truth due in their times. St. Paul's words in 1 Cor. 2: 5-16 denying that the unbegotten of the Spirit are able to understand the deep things are limited to the time of the general call, during which to be Spirit-begotten and to be consecrated meant the same thing, hence all the consecrated were then Spirit-begotten, which was not the case before the call to the high calling opened. Hence, after the general call ceased St. Paul's pertinent words do not apply universally. But the rule that applies always is that only the consecrated can see the due Truth. Therefore, the Youthful Worthies do have as a witness of their being friends and servants and prospective sons of God, the due Truth on the deep things."

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Were they not just as faithful?

PT April, 1940, page 53: "The above seven lines of Scriptural thought prove that in the end of the Gospel Age and in the Millennial Age there is a class that is separate and distinct from the Little Flock, Great Company, the Ancient Worthies and the Restitution Class, a class faithful to God while Satan, sin and death hold dominion over the earth, and afterward associated with the Little Flock, the Ancient Worthies and the Great Company in blessing the World of Mankind, the Restitution Class. Therefore we conclude that the Youthful Worthies are those faithful brethren who, consecrating since 1881, are not Spirit-begotten."

If there were Youthful Worthies consecrating from 1878-81, as the Executive Trustee says, why then did Bro. Johnson not include them here?

Tuesday, May 17, 2011

E 10 Authors Foreword

AUTHOR’S FOREWORD

GOD HAS been pleased to reveal every detail in the outworking of His plan beforehand by prophecy and type (Amos 3:7). Evidently, there should be in these two forms more details revealed as to the more than as to the less important seasons of His plan. Judging from the standpoint of this rule, the three most important seasons of His plan’s elective periods are the Jewish Harvest, the Parousia and the Epiphany; for decidedly more prophetical and typical Scriptures focus their light on each one of these three periods than upon any other elective periods of God’s counsel. When we consider the immense amount of prophecy and type that focused their light upon the person, character and offices of our Lord while He was in the flesh, upon the office and works of the Apostles and upon the condition and doings of God’s nominal people of the Jewish Harvest, we will readily recognize it as one of the most important seasons in God’s plan. Again, when we consider the immense number of prophetical and typical details relating to our Lord’s, Bro. Russell’s and certain of his supporters’ Parousiac ministries, to their opponents’ activities and to Satan’s empire in its preparation for overthrow, we must conclude that the Parousia is one of the most important periods of God’s plan. And, finally, when we consider the immense number of prophecies and types that relate to the actual overthrow of Satan’s empire by the World War, World Revolution, World Anarchy and by the last phase of Jacob’s Trouble, all four of these phases being mingled with famine and pestilence, Israel’s large scale return to Palestine and conversion to Christ, the development of two new elect classes of God’s people as such, the Great Company and the Youthful Worthies, as the Court of the Epiphany Tabernacle, and the formation of the Epiphany Camp, consisting of the loyal justified and the converted loyal Jews, we should conclude that it is one of the three main seasons of God’s plan...

Saturday, May 7, 2011

Canticles, from E11, page 692

"The following are the divisions of this book: 1: 1—2: 7 treats of the Church's experiences during the Jewish Harvest; 2: 8-17 treats of certain Parousia experiences of the Church; 3: 1-11 treats of the Church's experiences during the Dark Ages (1) and then from 1691 to 1914; 4: 1—5: 1 treats of the Parousia experiences of the Church doctrinally and ethically; 5: 2—6: 3 treats of the foolish virgins in the nominal church during the Parousia and Epiphany; 6: 4—8: 14 treats of the Epiphany Church in herself, in her contacts with Jesus and in her contacts with the Great Company and the Youthful Worthies, and incidentally of certain things as to the Great Company and the Youthful Worthies."

Saturday, April 30, 2011

PT May, 1942: THE SIGNIFICANCE OF JESUS' ASCENSION

"His ascension finally means for Himself that He was introduced into the exercise of His office as God's Vicegerent. At His resurrection He gained the right to this office and to its exercise (Matt. 28: 18). Immediately after the celebration of His return to Heaven He began to exercise this office; both creatively and providentially over the universes, and then at Pentecost on behalf of the Church, redemptorily as sharing with Him in the Sin-offering, enlighteningly, justifyingly, sanctifyingly and deliveringly. He has expanded the exercise of that power lately in developing the Great Company and the Youthful Worthies as classes."

Thursday, April 21, 2011

Does it say 1878 or 1881?

PT November-December, 1957: "However, despite the fact that the Youthful Worthies are not generally recognized as a class by the Great Company groups (except by the Good Levites), and despite the fact that they have so far been kept from their Millennial fold and station, in which they will assist in the joyful work of blessing all the families of the earth, let us not lose hope or turn away from the teaching, clearly set forth by Bro. Russell, that since 1881 there have been many consecrators for whom no crowns have been available, but who have the joyful prospect of being counted in with the Ancient Worthies in nature and reward. Let us remember that hope deferred is not hope lost. We should maintain the assurance of faith that though the fulfilment of this feature of the vision seems to tarry, it also will surely come; it will not really tarry."

If Youthful Worthies began consecrating as individuals in 1878, as is now taught by the Executive Trustee, then Bro. Jolly was wrong.

Wednesday, April 13, 2011

It cannot be a "later call" if they believe the new date of 1878.

If 1878 is the date of the beginning of the Youthful Worthy call, as the current Executive Trustee says, then Bro. Russell was incorrect in what he wrote in 1889 and Bro. Jolly was incorrect to reference it in May, 1955:

We note here some of Bro. Russell’s words (R 1113), written in 1889, in answer to a question as to the propriety of baptizing those who were consecrating after the general call ceased in 1881 and for whom consequently there might be no places in the Body of Christ: "It is proper that all who come to a knowledge of the Lord should consecrate themselves fully to Him. This will always be the only proper course to pursue, whether they come in under the ‘high calling’ or under another later call [italics ours], not so highly honorable and distinguished. Nothing short of full consecration will ever be proper, though by and by when our Lord’s kingdom is ruling, and when the reward will be less, the keeping of that consecration will cost no self-denial except of things actually sinful. There will no longer be any suffering Present Truth Question Book—(1918-2000) for righteousness’ sake, as now. Since, therefore, it is proper to consecrate—and thus perform the real baptism—it must still be in order, also, to perform the symbol of it in water.”

Saturday, April 2, 2011

Z 1046 (June, 1888): Bro. Russell responds to a letter. We apply bold text for some remarks.

[For our encouragement we should remember, that the only "call" yet made is to membership in the little flock. We are all called in one hope of our calling. (Eph. 4:4.) God has not during the Gospel age called some to the human plane and others to the "little flock of crown wearers," and others to the second class or "great company of palm bearers."

Only to the one class were any of us called, and all who have seen the prize, and accepted the invitation can, if they will, make their calling and election sure, by obedience to the conditions--full, complete self-sacrifice in the service of the Lord and under his direction. Those who shall compose the "great company" of palm bearers are those who have not done what they could--who after having consecrated all, even while they love righteousness and desire to see the truth prosper, are unwilling to sacrifice present comforts and interests by an open warfare on behalf of the truth and against error. These, while they love the Lord and the truth, do not love ardently enough to be acknowledged and crowned as overcoming soldiers of the cross. Surely our actions speak as loudly as our words, and it is in vain that any profess great love, if when the Master and the truth are assailed and misrepresented, they specially recognized agents and ambassadors shall keep quiet and fail to protest against the error for fear of  some earthly disadvantage resulting.

Whoever then is begotten of the Spirit, and therefore able to appreciate and run for the prize of the "high calling" of the Gospel age, may know that he is called by the only call yet issued: and if willingly he shall sacrifice his all, he may be as sure of the prize as any other one running the same race. Such a disposition is an evidence of a timely consecration and acceptance and therefore of a begetting of the Spirit. Press nobly on, then, dear fellow-laborers, whether you have entered the harvest field recently or earlier: we serve the one Lord, in the one Faith, and by the one Baptism into his death; and for all such he has the crown of life reserved. "Hold fast that which thou hast, let no man take thy crown." Be strong in the Lord; be valiant; yea, be also of good courage.--EDITOR.]

Tuesday, March 22, 2011

Bro. Jolly on Executive Trustee - The Quasi Elect 9/4/55

Bro. Jolly explains the difference between Pastor-Teacher and the office of Executive Trustee. Hopefully this will clear up the confusion some still have.

Click here to play

Wednesday, March 2, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: E4, Entire Book for Download

We have created a single PDF of all the modified pages from the Permanent Marker Series. This should make it very convenient for those interested in updating their copy of E4 so that it will be in harmony with the Executive Trustee's error. Simply download the file from this link, print the pages in the document, trim to size, and cover the existing material.

Please click here to download.

Wednesday, February 23, 2011

Antitypical Court PT. 1964 Page 55

(11) The antitypical Court will eventually consist of three classes: the Ancient Worthies, developed before the Gospel Age, and the Great Company and the Youthful Worthies, the two classes that as such are developed here in the Epiphany period, beginning in the Fall of 1914, which two classes therefore constitute the Epiphany Court (see, e.g., E 5, p. 420; P '40, pp. 13, 14; '59, pp. 34-36). Jesus as God's Executive has been in the process of building the Epiphany Court from 1914 onward, in His calling and development of the Youthful Worthy class and in His dealing with the Great Company as a class, in readying them for the Marriage Supper. The Epiphany Court was completely set up individually and tentatively by Sept. 16, 1954, the end. of the antitypical 80 days of Lev. 12 (P '55, p. 29; '59, p. 37),...

Wednesday, February 16, 2011

Further Light

"(29) In the Parousia reaping period (1874-1914), in the Epiphany, or Apocalypse, period in its restricted, 40-year sense (1914-1954) and ever since 1954 in its wider sense, in the lapping beginning of the Basileia (Kingdom) period, many have blessed others with the Parousia Truth, the Parousia and Epiphany Truth or whatever measure of Truth they have inside or outside of Babylon, at least sufficient to enable them to bring others into tentative justification. In these periods, these servants of God have, by the measure of such Truth as they possessed, figuratively fathered many who by repentance and faith in Jesus as Savior have become tentatively justified, and who make full consecrations in the post-Sept. 16, 1954 Epiphany period and so become Consecrated Epiphany Campers. By causing others through the Word to become tentatively justified, these servants have figuratively fathered such into partial consecrations, consecrations to righteousness (comp. F 124, 125). These consecrations are not to be confused with full consecrations, which in the Gospel-Age proper made full consecrators into Spirit-begotten new creatures and which since 1881 additionally have made many others into Spirit-enlightened, non-Spirit-begotten fully consecrated ones."  PT. 1977 Pages. 90-91

Wednesday, February 9, 2011

This Thought Published At Least Seven Times

Especially for the benefit of new readers, we will repeat here one of the clear, at least seven-times-published enumerations of the classes in the Epiphany Camp in its present, unfinished state: "As in the unfinished Epiphany Court, as it existed from 1914 to 1954, there were three classes—(1) the Great Company, a Spirit-begotten class, (2) the Youthful Worthies, a consecrated and Spirit-enlightened but not Spirit-begotten class, and (3) the unconsecrated tentatively justified—so in the unfinished Epiphany Camp, as it exists from [Oct.] 1954 onward, there are three classes—(1) the Consecrated Epiphany Campers, a consecrated and Spirit-enlightened but not Spirit-begotten class, a non-Levite class [but typed by the Nethinim, who were the appointed assistants to the Levites—Ezra 8: 17, 20; 2; 7: 7, 24; Neh. 3: 26, 31; 7; 10: 28; 11: 3, 21; P '71, pp. 37-42; '72, pp. 12-15, 75; '73, pp. 29, 30; '78, p. 55], (2) the unconsecrated tentatively justified and (3) the unjustified, nominal people of God" (P '75, p. 13; comp. P '63, pp. 77, 78).

Wednesday, February 2, 2011

Reserved List III


E4. Page 420

Of course, after the last crown was assigned there could be no more vacancies; and hence all on the reserved list as well as all future consecrators had no other Kingdom class position open for their entry than that reserved for the Youthful Worthies.

(19) Question: Should we now encourage believers to consecrate, with Youthful Worthies' prospects as their hope?

Answer: We should now encourage believers to consecrate, because consecration is always in order. We should, however, not now encourage any one to consecrate in hope of the High Calling.

Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Reserved List II


E4. Page. 420

Apparently the Lord made between 1881 and 1914 a reserved list of those consecrators for whom there were no crowns available at the time of their consecration; and when a vacancy occurred, He selected the most available one on the reserved list for that vacancy. Doubtless the Lord considered at least three things in deciding the availability of the candidates: (1) their spirit of faithfulness, (2) their talents for that particular place in the Body for which there was a crown vacant, and (3) their providential situation.

The current Executive Trustee's "present view" is exposed as an error. Reserved List? If there was a class of Youthful Worthies in 1878 or 1881, what was the purpose of having them on a "Reserved List?"

See Reserved List III. Coming soon...

Wednesday, January 19, 2011

Reserved List I


E4 Page. 419
(18) Question: Is it correct to say that some who consecrated after 1881 and before 1914 were put into the Youthful Worthies class, because there were no vacancies at the time in the Little Flock, and that subsequently some of them were received by Spirit-begettal into the High Calling to fill vacancies there, while others remained among and are now of the Youthful Worthies class?

Answer: Yes

Taking the question out of the present perfect and with some creative mental gymnastics one might be able to twist the meaning to infer there was a separate and distinct class for the Youthful Worthies in 1881. In the next sentence, Bro. Johnson dispels this notion and explains why this can't be so. See "Reserve List II" coming soon.

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: E4, Page 469


(Click the above image for best quality.)

Well, here we are. We've reached the end of E4. Page 469 offers us the strongest reference contradicting the Executive Trustee's view that Youthful Worthies existed from 1878-81. Bro. Johnson tells us that between Pentecost and 1881, ALL the consecrated were New Creatures. We have no choice but to use the last bit of our purple marker to move that date back to 1878. Who knew that the Executive Trustee's error would need so many markers, ink and changes to E4.

Thursday, January 6, 2011

Permanent Marker Series: E4, Page 463


(Click the above image for best quality.)

Page 463 has part of the answer to the question posed on page 462 about the Youthful Worthies seeing spiritual things. Just like that page, any reference to 1881 on this page needs to be changed to 1878 in order to help the Executive Trustee. Otherwise, his new Youthful Worthies from 1878-81 don't have that ability and that makes no sense at all.